Judgment, Trust, and Building Compliance at the Frontier with Jennifer Lee from Savvy Labs

Jenny, um, your career >> bridges traditional finance and the crypto frontier from 10 years at Goldman Sachs to heading compliance at Anchorage Digital and taking on a dual leadership role, CCO and COO at Savvy Labs. You've helped crypto startup obtain a federal bank charter and even navigated regularly storms. So yeah, I don't want to go over the resume. I want to explore really the inflection points, your personal choices and everything that motivated it. So yeah, I would love to start with the beginning.

That's quite interesting. You didn't start out as a typical finance major or lawyer. You actually studied psychology at UC Berkeley. What pulled you into the finance world? >> Yeah, great question.

Um, usually when I introduce myself, we don't start that early on that all the way back. >> I went a couple of years back, did I? >> Yeah, but great question. I'd love to share that story. Um I think I kind of um fell into the finance industry really.

Um so you know taking even a few years even before prior to that um going into college I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. Um really appreciated art was thinking about maybe art school but um being a first generation you know Chinese American that was not something my parents wanted to sponsor. So the deal was, you know, get a four-year degree and then you're you're free to do whatever you want to do. So I figured love talking to people, meeting people. Okay.

Psychology seems cool. As he mentioned, got my BAS um at Berkeley in psychology and um that was amazing. But I realized, you know, close to graduation that that wasn't necessarily what I wanted to do without aging myself. Uh I did graduate in 2003. So, it was probably not the best time to graduate and so the world was really coming out of a recession.

Um, you know, not getting a grad degree as a psych major. You know, job prospects were bleak. So, I really had to really consider, you know, what made sense for me. Um and you know through my college um career like during the summers I would I had worked at a retail brokerage and I thought that that world was very fascinating for me. Um so decided to kind of you know give it a try.

Um coming right out of college I was still in tip-top shape to take exams. Um so took a few FINRA exams. Um started off my career as a sales trader at the retail brokerage. Um and then a year later I had the opportunity to transition into training compliance. Um and that's really how I got into finance into compliance.

I realized that you know compliance is really um kind of the field I wanted to develop my career in >> for someone that wanted to do art decided that they like people and wanted to do psychology and then going into finance and compliance feels like not a stretch but it's you know uh it's interesting. But do you think that this background that you had in understanding you know people um and their behaviors changed the way or infer on the way you've been you know doing compliance for the past two decades now? >> Yeah. Yes. Without aging myself again.

Yeah. Um but yes I can't believe it. Um two decades. Um definitely >> great. Don't worry.

>> Thank you. >> Um but definitely right. So um at the end of the day we're working with people um and you know understanding um human psychology, human behavior has been very instrumental in my um journey as a uh compliance professional um from you know how we design processes um design uh compliance architecture all of that systems um to you know from two sides you know understanding what is um the easiest way for people to understand and interpret policies, procedures, trainings, all of that to understanding potentially how if someone wanted to, you know, conduct nefarious activities, right? Like what what are potential loopholes and how to like mitigate that all of that. So I do think that um having a psychology um background helped me to um to to really become a better uh compliance professional.

It also helped me to um you know be able to look at data and really understand and interpret that as well. So that has really helped it. This even helped me as um a compliance manager leader as well um to really understand you know the needs of the team um and how to really keep people motivated and encouraged. >> I want to dig into the um Chinese American backgrounds, right? You then went to Goldman Sachs and you spent 10 years at Goldman and during that there was quite a bit of a APAC stint where you were um in Apac and in the US.

Um what is it like building your compliance careers across those two different markets and I'm especially curious on the people side of things? I mean those are two very very very different cultures. Um how do you do it and how do you think about it? So I think you know building my career across these two regions um has been really uh really interesting for me. I think uh you know at a high level when one thing I became really good at was um learning about um how to communicate and observing who the audience was.

Right? So um you know potentially I mean I think we can all agree there are cultural differences between how people think how they react um across the two different regions you know um from a cultural perspective. So the way we speak the way we engage may be interpreted differently uh with one group versus another. Although I think working at um a global American um investment bank even in Asia we were pretty Americanized right. Um but in terms of you know how we spoke to our stakeholders um how we wanted to um present things it there was you always had to somewhat uh tailor tailor it a little bit.

Um, and that's something I quickly learned how to do and I became, I would say, really good at over the 10 years I was there. >> Nice. As though you were running entity level regulatory reporting for all of Goldman North America, which does sound like an incredibly big scope. Um, what is the hardest thing about that role and what did it teach you that you couldn't have learned any other way? I think that that role was interesting because it was across several different uh types of entities within the US.

So Goldman has um a constellation um you know uh like number of um entities regulated entities just in the US and um you know North America would you know add a tremendous number there as well. And so understanding what the regulatory requirements uh were for each of those entities, the regulators um they're all a little bit different. The definitions of how you would report um to one regulator for one set of data would be different for another one. So all those intricacies was something we had to really build out and define. Um but that was something that my team was um you know really great at you know really digging in deep um understanding the differences and setting up a process which helped us become uh more efficient and effective as we as we uh built out that program.

When you think about those first years at Goldman versus the last years at Goldman, what do you think compliance was about? And in hindsight, what did you get wrong or right about, you know, your initial perceptions of what it would be? >> You know, I always thought we had like the gold standard in terms of compliance um you know, across many of the uh larger institutions. And so, um you know, it was interesting the training we got there. We understood um you know where compliance as an organization fit in terms of the overall firm.

We understood the remmet you know about how we're using these tools such as training um policies procedures in uh regulatory interactions testing monitoring all of that as tools to help us to keep the firm and its employees out of trouble right um and that is 100% absolutely true but as um you know as I've uh kind of you know taken on different roles um you know with even within Goldman, but also after I left Goldman, I've come to see that compliance is so much more than that. Right. I think that um one of the most commercial things that a company can do, big or small, is to be compliant. Y >> right. And so before I had this mindset that we were not so much like playing defense, but we're keeping people out of trouble.

Um but it's so much more than that. And as we do that, um, keeping everyone out of trouble, we are actually also being commercial. We're offering a very, um, special, um, value ad to our clients, right? And so that is a a shift in mentality that I've come to realize, you know, later on um, in my career. Um, and, you know, I think it's 100% absolutely true.

>> After that, you've gone rogue. I mean, I I didn't say that, but a lot of your friends apparently said, "Hey, you went rogue." All right. 10 years in at Goldman Sachs. You literally the pinnacle of, you know, finance. >> Yeah.

>> And um in 2019, you decided to go to Anchorage Digital. >> Mhm. What was going through your mind when you went from this you know 10ear stint of leading one of the biggest departments of the biggest bank in the world to joining Anchorage which um obviously incredible company but maybe at the time less obvious choice >> at that moment in time that was 2019 I had literally just crossed my 10 year mark got this beautiful cube which they give to all employees who've you know who who've celebrated their 10 year anniversary I I I definitely still have it on my desk at home. Um, and you know, I was at a great point in my career, right? Um, team was great, loved the leadership, um, loved the culture at the firm as well.

Um, but I think at the same time, I could really see how my career would be for the next 5 to 10 years, right? And so, and and and that that's a great thing and that would have been a wonderful thing and it would have been a wonderful career. However, I wanted to try something a little bit different, right? And so, um, when the Anchorage opportunity came, um, I now when I look back, I think what I did was, you know, I took a calculated risk. I thought, you know, okay, um, looking at the risk and rewards, um, and also, you know, like laying everything out on the table at that time in 2019, crypto was, um, you know, hot, exciting, right, but less mainstream as it is today.

as you know, we're sitting here in 2026, right? And so, like you said, you know, I wasn't even sure like, well, is crypto a thing here to stay or not? I wasn't sure. Um, and Anchorage was kind of a double whammy, right? Great great startup.

Um, but also it's, you know, hasn't been around as as long as Goldman. So, again, >> very few companies have. >> Exactly. Exactly. But, you know, I figured I was off being offered an opportunity to build not only a compliance program from scratch, but the entire team from scratch um and able to apply everything I've learned um to applying it to a new digital asset class, which I thought was just so enticing.

And you know, I felt like um all the steps leading up to that point has been really preparing me for that opportunity, right? And so, that was really exciting for me. And you know, I told myself, hey, you know, if it doesn't work out or if I don't like it, um, you know, like my previous experience doesn't go away just because I tried something. Yeah. And so, um, decided to take a leap and, um, you know, I remember when I resigned and, you know, I was, you know, making my round saying goodbye to people.

um you know I I they didn't say it out loud but potentially some people thought I was going rogue going to the crypto realm but you know in h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h h hindsight was um a great decision. It really helped me to um really expand on uh my knowledge and practice in general. >> Also building the first OC regulated crypto company and I think it still is the only OC regulated crypto company, right? >> Operating >> operating. Well, yeah.

>> Right. Big change indeed. >> Yes. >> In interviews, you've argued the divide between traditional finance and crypto is mostly a misperception. >> Um saying that as a fundamental level, it's all the same in terms of risk.

It is at the time probably a bold stance considering that for a lot of people crypto is considered as being the wild west. Um, how did you come to see digital assets and traditional assets as fundamentally similar in terms of risk? >> When I look at, you know, situations or complicated problems, um, I always like to boil it down to, um, the basics, the foundation, right? And so I look at the um you know um kind of the concerns regulators may have on the digital asset space at that time right um and compared it to what I've known uh leading up to that point in the trady space right what regulators were expecting what they were concerned with and I realized hey these are all very similar problems right like fraud uh money laundering right um operational failures all of that Right. Um and I realized that at the end of the day the goals are always the same across asset classes across um the regulators.

And so in many ways I feel that and I continue to feel that way that um there are more similarities than differences between trad um it's just you know the applications are different. um the tools, the technology you have to help mitigate the risk, control for it, identify risk may be different, but the fundamentals are very similar. >> Would you say that like your experience at Goldman was one of the key factors in helping the team get, you know, an OC charter and you knowing really how to get into the weeds and know probably um regulators and whatnot. for me personally definitely um what I brought to the table would be my set of experience from Goldman and and even you know earlier on but um I think you know it's the whole team the leadership team right and um so it's not any one person any one team um that's really helped us um to to be able to get that charter >> so you're really vocal about the trust initiative so uh for people that I don't know, travel rule, universal solution technology. >> Mhm.

>> Um, and you called it the clearest sign yet that digital assets players as an industry truly care about compliance. What made that moment feel significant to you? And do you think, you know, that's really something specific to crypto that's helping compliance in general? I think that was a very good example of uh the crypto industry coming together to kind of um structure and create build the infrastructure needed to meet the um you know the regulatory expectations and also the kind of um the process in order to uh push um you know the digital asset space into um to become more mainstream. So it was a a very uh needed step um because as you know in trad 5 for many years you have the fed rails you have the infrastructure that's already been there but that's you know something that's been built on um for many many years right um in order for us to get to that point and so I think the crypto industry had done an amazing job um coming together quickly and in a very uh united way to really you know, meet those needs and, you know, work together.

>> What's the biggest cultural shock? Um, 10 years in Chadfy, they're swinging to crypto. Um, especially from a century old bank, centuries old bank. Um, you know, at Goldman, I imagine that you had stripes and formal processes. Anchorage was more of a tech start vibe.

M um what was the biggest cultural shock, the most surprising thing when landing there? >> Being at a wellestablished bank as you mentioned, you're used to meeting people who've um come from other wellestablished banks right on the street and it's like, "Oh, hi." Um you know, when you introduce each other, it's like, "I'm from this bank. Oh, you're from another bank." It's kind of a revolving door within these different banks, right? And um you know one of what that also means is that everyone kind of starts off with a similar set of um understanding of risk and compliance and understanding fiduciary obligations um you know conduct risk all of that right and so um that's something I had uh started off my career being used to like where when you're training people talking to people everyone has a they they're basically have started from a very similar kind of um place and understanding. And so it did make my job a lot easier as a compliance officer when you're talking to them and trying to um influence or um you know or to communicate different policies, procedures.

>> Um but coming into crypto, you realize that you have people who've never been in the financial industry, right? They're like um they've come from other fintexs, right? or a pure big tech com company, right? And so, um, going back to basics again, right? And then, um, having that communication, um, to have people understand, not assuming that everyone understands what you're talking about when you're talking about, um, you know, conflicts of interest, right, or personal account trading, all of that.

and really boiling it down again back to the basic fundamentals to help people understand was such a fun process because um you know after a while you kind of just think like everyone's speaking the same language, same jargon, you know what I'm talking about, I know what you're talking about. But then coming back and being like okay, oh yeah, well why did we have these policies? What kind of risk are we trying to mitigate? Right? Boiling that down even for myself was just fun, right?

and then regurgitating and helping to communicate that back out to everyone else was a very fun process and actually made me a better compliance officer. >> Before we go deeper, um I'd love to help our audience understand what Savvy Labs is building. I don't think everyone here knows um necessarily about them. So, I'll give the oneliner that I understand. SEC registered investment advisor focused on financial uh on institutional investors.

Um, but what problem is it solving and why was this the opportunity you chose after Anchorage? >> So, Savvy Labs, like you mentioned, SEC registered investment advisor. We're really trying to um solve for um a couple of problems, but mainly helping to um provide a tech layer for asset managers, for wealth managers to help them provide more customization um to their clients. So um we probably all have seen and read somewhere at some point um about the generational uh wealth transfer, right? And you know um so there definitely is um a lot of focus on um you know people wealth being transferred across different generations.

The generation now who's kind of now becoming um inheriting and uh receiving a lot of that wealth um are now demanding more technology right and then have more um expectations around customization. And so our platform really helps to achieve that and helps asset managers who are not um you know one of the few handful large asset managers in the industry have that technology to provide that service to their clients. >> How many people are at Savvy Labs right now? >> We're at 16. >> Okay.

16 people. We're at 12. So it's a fastmoving startup. I know the gist. >> Yes.

>> Compliance can feel sometimes like the brakes on a race car. >> Not for everyone, but just putting it out there. Um, have you ever had to push the Kabos on an existing product or partnership because it didn't meet compliance standards? >> No joke. But that has not happened in that sense.

It has, you know, of course, we have said no. I'm not saying we say yes to everything, but the conversation quickly um you know shifts from no and then talking about it is under helping them understand why it's a no, but then it's also the conversation quickly transitions to well if not now how do we get there, right? And so um and so it becomes a very productive conversation. And um so all of the kind of um assumptions about how that becomes like a kind of like a hor horrible conversation actually is not true because I've been fortunate enough to be working with a lot of thought leaders who um have a compliance first mindset and quickly they're like they the next question is okay well then how do we get there? and then we work together to um formulate the steps.

>> That's great. That's exactly the way. It's funny. I've had a conversation with the chief compliance officer of Melio, Nick, >> who had exactly the same way of seeing things. So >> that's 100% agree with you.

>> One of the things that's probably the most unique about what I've seen in your profile. I've seen people go from Chadf to crypto and even though your tenure was quite impressive there, um you have two seuite titles. your chief operating officer and chief compliance officer, which is quite an unusual combination because I'll have to say like uh you know as someone who's selling rag tech, these are my two ICPS >> and you embody both of them. So how does it come about? I'm glad someone's asked me that because um it's you know a story which I think is great and you know now I think about it was quite brilliant on part of the leadership team at Savvy right so I started off as a CCO and did what CCOs's do build up the compliance team and controls policies trainings all the fun stuff right um and as you know compliance's touch points um across the firm is expansive so quickly leadership thought and I you know realized that it would be um not only most beneficial for the company but also for our clients for us to be building out the processes in the first instance with a compliance first mindset instead of building it up a different way and then later needing to um you know walk back or you know you know hopefully nothing horrid happens but you know if something were to happen, needing to rebuild processes, right?

So, it's better to build a process, operational processes, um, you know, right, the first time with a compliance first mindset. >> But do you ever feel like you're wearing two different hats that tug in opposite directions? >> You know, that was definitely something I wondered about at first as well. And so um but you know when this opportunity did come about when I was asked to take on a more expanded role my um response was you know thank you very much for um you know considering me for this expanded role um and I'm happy to do it but just so you know between the two when push comes to shove I'm the CCO first before I'm the COO right >> yeah cuz like the CCO in you wants to drive growth and speed and like reduce cost and the CCO >> I mean the CO at first and the CCO very different wants to ensure control compliance and whatnot. >> Yeah.

>> I don't know how if you can even tell us but is there a specific example that comes to mind where the CCO had to you know push out the COO out of the way. So I'll give you a real life example, you know, a recent one also as you know like AI is a hot topic. Um and as a COO that is always something uh top of mind for me um is to have more um efficient processes operationally and from a business perspective throughout the organization. And so that's definitely um something that our clients want to see, we want to see from a management perspective, investors want to see as well. Um so definitely there is that commercial kind of need and drive right um but you know um as a CCO we don't want to stifle innovation we don't want to stifle tech um advancements but at the same time we have to be very thoughtful about what we implement and um you know what measures we take so there have been times where you know we had to um I wouldn't say halt but more um slow things down until we've gone through and you know at first um created the process to review and um governed um this this uh review and analysis for AI tools and so um creating a committee that reviews for privacy for data usage through these AI tools and um helping to kind of streamline that process but making sure that we're thoughtful and careful um and you know still being able to provide our fiduciary obligations to our clients.

Um, that's, you know, that's that's a good example of where we had to slow things down. Um, but we eventually still got there. >> It's one thing to be the expert rule keeper, but now you're also running much of the business. Were there areas of the COO role that you initially felt less prepared for and how did you quickly get up to speed? >> I would say similarly, I think technology, right?

So I think as a um you know previously in compliance right we are more doing reviewing right and assessing and people are presenting the tools or the technology to you to see can we use this um is it safe right and then um it's like someone coming to you with already a set of um you know not the problems but a set of options and choices for you to pick out right um and then as the COO you kind of have to go explore and look for that um set of the universe of options or tool set to present to the committee. So that's kind of a different mindset. Um so I think you know as a CCO nowadays as well I think you know understanding technology um and you know keeping a breast not only of regulatory changes but technology advancements and changes is um a more expanded and new um area which I think maybe even a couple decades ago it was less relevant but more and more so now. I do feel like sometimes when I talk to when I have my sales conversations and I have to talk to ops and I have to talk to compliance. Yeah.

The thing where there's a sometimes resentment from ops because it feels like compliance doesn't understand enough the business needs and like resentment from compliance because it seems like they don't understand enough the compliance needs. But you were and you still are as you said mostly a CCO and like that's a role that you embody more. Mhm. >> Would you say that now being in the day-to-day operations have made you a better CCO? >> Yeah, definitely.

Although I would like to think I've always been very good at my job. >> I'm sure you have. >> Yeah, thank you. No, but I um definitely as the COO I I can understand even more um fundamentally the needs um of the business and um you know uh a lot of the commercial uh drive looking at and hearing directly from our clients firsthand what their needs are and then um looking creating for solutions that make sense. I I now going through that part of the process now um definitely helps me understand the front end right before the request comes to compliance where it comes from and you know it actually um both ways helps me become a good COO as well because um we're able to create solutions more um more efficiently.

My last question, a dual role because I find it very interesting by the way. Uh, how has it shaped or influenced Savvy's culture? >> I would look at this a different way. I would say that because Savvy's culture has been always a compliance first culture and the leadership team has been um of a compliance first mindset where um they you know that's why they presented me with this opportunity. Um and you know another good example would be that uh I was the compliance team was actually built out hired and built out even before any of the other like operations or finance teams right so after engineering you know I was I was brought on like two plus years ago right so you know really um embodying that kind of compliance first mindset has always been in the culture of this company >> road ahead Fin compliance legacy.

>> I want to go into the future of compliance. All right. Having straddled the old and new financial worlds, what do you see coming in the next 5 to 10 years that today's compliance leaders need to be ready for? >> You know, I touched on this um earlier as well, but technology, right? Having a good handle of um technology and um how quickly it's changing, AI as well, right?

Um all of these things are um you know demands which um compliance officers need to fully understand. Um which again was not a thing of like 10 years ago for example. So um so I think as a for a compliance officer you your foundation now uh requires you to have a good grasp of regulations, understand your product, understand your business, your clients, all of that that still holds true but the application may look different. So you may be applying your knowledge to crypto for example or to the wealth management space and or using different tools such as blockchain analytics or AI tools. Right?

So um having a very broad um breath of knowledge is I think foundational and is a mustave for a compliance officer to be successful. How do you think like emerging trends like there's been DeFi, AI and finance and there's ever you know tightening regulations, how do you think that's going to change the role of the CCO in five years? I think with all of these um changes, all the areas you've mentioned, I think um you know, all of them are a little bit different like DeFi is different, AI um for compliance, all of that is different. Again, I think it's being able I think all of these things is going to force um compliance as a um function to be more broad and more knowledgeable, right? Become more savvy in terms of our knowledge.

Um and it's not about just you know focusing on one thing that you're doing in your vertical and that's all you're focused on right so it's really becoming um not a generalist but having always being up to speed in terms of the latest developments and so on um so there are different risks DeFi has different kind of risk AI um on business and compliance have different risks as well so making sure that um you know your foundations are strong so you know how to mitigate the risk and identify that that's going to be um a new challenge for for compliance officers um because there are you know um a lot of new kinds of technology. So, you've been a pioneer in a lot of ways, let's say. Um, you've taken unconventional career risks. You've shaped the first crypto bank. You're currently wearing multiple hats.

Uh, when you think big picture, what impact or legacy do you hope to have on fintech and compliance industry, if any? I don't know about legacy but I hope that I can uh really set an example for others to see that um you know innovation is really key. Um we see it all around us, right? And it is possible going from one industry to another. Um and you know um being able to apply your knowledge to a new uh set of standards to a new asset class, all of that is possible and it is kind of the way of the future, right?

Because every day you see um maybe not every day, but you we're seeing this more and more frequently how many different industries are evolving. there's consolidation etc. And so um keeping um a kind of innovation first kind of mindset um and being thoughtful about that obviously I think is key and is going to be um you know hopefully something I can demonstrate for others that's possible >> and is there any cultural shift you hope can contribute to in that space you know it is a lot of manage space as well and like um you know there's always been that hey compliance is um friction and whatnot So yeah, I would love to understand if there's like a change in the industry or cultural shift you'd like to be part of. I would like to see and I am seeing this a lot already but what I spoke about earlier on um seeing compliance not only as um kind of a only a control function but really a commercial function as well I think is a change of mentality which is um I think needed right and I think is um demonstrating to be more and more true across different industries. So now I'm going to go back back back back back again, but it's you know you said um you wanted to be in the arts and then because of you know first generation Chinese um immigrants in the US your parents really wanted you to um do something with a degree and you went ahead 10 years at Gourman, three years at Anchorage um now two and a half years at at Savvy.

Are you proud of yourself? Yes. But, you know, being the um Chinese American my parents raised, I always feel like I haven't done enough yet, >> right? Um good so far, but I can do more. I should be doing more.

Um and so, yeah, I mean, I I'm very happy and fortunate for all the opportunities I've had so far, the people I've met. Um I think because of all of these experiences, I've really become um I've been able to become the person that I am today and the professional that I am today. Um, but yeah, I I I feel like I'm kind of just getting started, you know. Um, after I left Anchorage, um, you know, when I was kind of I think you kind of asked me this earlier as well, but, you know, um, you know, when I went from, you know, large bank like Goldman to Anchorage and then, you know, to even smaller startup, right? Like what brought me there?

It's really the team, it's the people, but more fundamentally, it's my um my um interest to and curiosity and want to build, right? I like to innovate and have change. Um and so for at least, you know, that may change 10 years down the line when we have another podcast, you know, recording%. >> Um but for now, >> you'll be the one hosting. >> Okay.

Yeah, I would love that. You'll be my first guest. Um but yeah, that's you know, that's that's where I am now. And you know, people evolve too. And so, you know, at least now I feel like I still have a lot more that I can do.

>> Cool. Maybe you'll start a company in a couple of years to to complete the arc from the big to the small to the smaller to yourself. So, >> yeah, maybe. >> And so, to for young professionals listening, you know, maybe those starting in traditional finance but in crypto or the fintech space, what advice would you give? >> So, two things come to mind.

uh one always try to identify mentors and teachers or people who um can you know whether it's taking a personal kind of um interest in your success or people who just want to share their experience. There's so much for you to gain from that and you know um they're really going to be able to help you to um either navigate your career better or to potentially um you know avoid some mishaps so that you don't have to um also experience it firsthand yourself cuz I can think of many other productive ways you can use your time instead of needing to go through all of that but still understand what the challenges are. Um I think that's number one. And then number two, um I would say don't be afraid to take risks. It needs to be calculated risk, right?

Um >> I'll quote that just I'll just put that extract in the video. Take risks from a compliance leader. >> Yeah. It's um you know calculated risks, right? So it's something to be thoughtful to be intentional about the risks you're taking.

Um but without you know taking any risk um you know I don't think that it it's it'll be much slower for you to develop as um an individual as a professional um even as a business you know the safest ways take no risk right um but that would be very hard um and detrimental for an organization so always be thoughtful mindful and um take calculated risks >> love it well it was a great podcast I'd love to finish with a rapid Fire. Does that work? >> Yes. >> Lovely. >> One word that defines a great compliance leadership.

>> Honesty. >> Most overrated compliance trend right now. >> Compliance theater. >> Most underrated tool or control that actually works? >> Training.

>> A fintech mistake you've seen more than once and wish would stop. >> Overlooking compliance controls. >> Hardest thing to explain to a non-compliance colleague. Including compliance early on helps to make things more efficient in the long run. >> One compliance task you'd automate tomorrow if you could.

>> Monitoring across different tools and um consolidating into a risk rating. >> Biggest red flag you spot instantly in early stage startups. >> Um lack of communication. >> Skill feature CCOs must develop that's not in any textbook. >> Communication.

So for anyone listening to that podcast, it's all about communication. >> Yes. Very important. >> One hill you'll always die on. Compliance wise, >> be truthful and credible.

>> I thought you were going to say communication. >> No, I should. >> You should have. And last question. If you weren't in compliance or ops, what would you be doing instead?

I feel like I have my answer, but I'll let you take it away. >> Well, actually, I'll throw you a curveball because I haven't mentioned this. I would want to be a travel blogger. >> No way. >> Yeah, I love to travel and you know it gives me being a travel blogger just seems very fun.

Would love to try it out. >> So, next company is a crossber payments company. >> Yeah, >> Jenny, it was a pleasure having you on the podcast. Thank you so much. And yeah, that's a wrap.

>> Thank you.